posted 02/22/10 05:21 AM | updated 02/22/10 03:12 AM
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A 2-lane 23rd could be coming in 2012

By scott
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23rd Avenue is a mere 42 feet wide, yet is packed with four vehicle lanes for its entire length. Few other four-lane roads in Seattle are so narrow, and many two lane roads, such as Broadway, are 10 feet wider. The brave pedestrians that walk alongside it are passed by speeding cars just a few feet away from the sidewalk.

But that could all change within the next two years, as the city will be studying the possibility of allowing parking along 23rd during off-peak hours, reducing the street to two lanes of travel for much of the day.

The study was prompted by a request from the Montlake community, and it will examine the entire length of 23rd between Cherry Street and Roanoke (23rd Ave becomes 24th on the way down to Montlake). The study is planned to begin in 2011, and could be implemented in 2012 if the study's results are supportive of the change.

According to Jim Curtain, community liaison from the city Department of Transportation, the general rule of thumb is that any roadway that carries less than 20,000 vehicles a day is a candidate for being slimmed down from four lanes to two. Traffic studies from 2006 show that 24th Avenue carries about that much traffic down near 520, but that 23rd carries only about 15,000 daily vehicles here in the Central District.

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Dumb idea
Projects like this sound like a good idea, but in reality they slow everything down - including buses - and will inevitably mean more cars on the side streets as the nervous types try to dodge traffic.

We live in a busy, dense neighborhood that will become denser over the years, and that's a good thing. But until we have the national mindshift that gets us out of our cars, we're going to have to deal with traffic. We need to accept that some streets are just going to be busy, instead of trying to "calm" them.

Of course, if they were putting a streetcar line down 23rd to the UW, I'd be singing a different tune......
Comment by neighbor
February 22, 2010
What
Excellent. I've been wondering where to park when I want to get rid of my car stereo and now I'll finally have a sure-fire option.
Comment by Anon
February 22, 2010
what?
This is crazy talk. Everything will slow down. The 48 runs every 15 minutes, and for a great chunk the 43 runs every 15 minutes as well. It will significantly slow things down. And what about all of the people turning left at John or Aloha?

Have there been more pedestrian accidents along 23rd than other roadways? Have there been more accidents due to the narrow roadway?

Crazy talk.

And if they add street-side parking that close to the 48, they'll likely get a lot of UW students driving in and then busing the rest of the way.

BAH!
Comment by limes
February 22, 2010
RE: what?
I have found that I often have to sit though two lights to turn at the intersection of 23rd and Union, and often find delays while a shopper attempts to turn for Safeway on 23rd and Madison, or other businesses along 23rd. When you head further down 23rd ( North past Madison ), the options for turning are extreamly limited already, with plenty of delays. When you add in the buses ( I assume we would add bike lanes too ), I think this plan could cause more delays than not.
Comment by Linda
February 22, 2010
Benefits?
What other sort of benefits or negative impacts could this alteration have to the peripheral neighborhoods? Specifically, Madison to Cherry. For example, in areas where the traffic is forced to move slower, could it improve or worsen the illegal activities the community has worked to decrease at intersections such as 23rd and Union? I'd like to consider these type of initiatives in a larger fashion, beyond the needs of the car (and I do have a car and use this arterial quite a bit) and specific neighborhoods like Montlake. And I second Lime's point on U of W students/workers. I used to do that myself many year ago -- park kind close, bus it down.
Comment by EGs Little Boots
February 22, 2010
RE: Benefits?
This was recommended several years ago as we considered aggressive cross through traffic on the side streets. Biggest benefit is that it could allow left turns on to Madison or John for north bound traffic.
Comment by robert
February 22, 2010
road diet
Rather than just allowing parking in the outside lanes, the city should look at doing a road diet on 23rd (one lane in each direction with a center 2-way left turn lane), like they've done on MLK and many other streets. There would be room for bike lanes one either side as well (but no parking). Studies have shown traffic to still flow pretty well on these streets, especially because the middle 2-way left turn lane gets left turners out of the travel lanes. The bike lane would also be consistent with the bike master plan.
Comment by wave
February 22, 2010
RE: road diet
I second the road diet idea. 23rd should be like MLK or 12th, with a center turn lane. The street is too narrow for 4 lanes of traffic.

The idea proposed above, of just making the outer two lanes sometimes available for parking and sometimes not, is silly. NE 50th St through Wallingford works like that (or used to) and I find it terribly confusing. You're driving in the right hand lane and then, out of nowhere, boom! a parked car appears. So silly.
Comment by OR
February 22, 2010
RE: road diet
I third the idea. There's got to be a way around buses, delivery trucks, construction, etc., but it's scary the way it is now. The buses and some trucks are wider than their lanes in many places, especially by Safeway, and horrible accidents are just waiting to happen. You shouldn't have to drive back from the bus in the next lane because it's hanging over into your lane!
Comment by csw
February 22, 2010
RE: road diet
This was recommended several years ago as we considered aggressive cross through traffic on the side streets. Biggest benefit is that it could allow left turns on to Madison or John for north bound traffic.
Comment by robert
February 22, 2010
RE: road diet
We have seen the recent addition of bike lanes on Cherry street, and have benefited from this added option, and would love to see this as an option if lanes are removed for cars on 23rd. Your recommendation to use the remaining space ( from one removed north and south bound lane ) for turn lanes, could benefit us more than the parking. So far, I have not seen a great deal of demand for parking along 23rd, as there seems to be plenty of parking at local businesses.
Comment by Linda
February 22, 2010
RE: road diet
This is a great idea. Who needs all that parking, and I bet a lot of people would like an addition north-south bikeway. Since 23rd is perfectly flat for much of its length through CD/Capitol Hill, it would be perfect.

By the way, Daved, I prefer my white liberals on bikes rather than inside Priuses. Next time, come up with an actual reason to be against more bikes and bike lanes, please.
Comment by doug
February 22, 2010
RE: road diet
The 48 is one of the busiest bus routes in the system. Trying to do bulb-outs for stops plus bike lanes plus a road diet would almost inevitably lead to even worse on-time performance for the 48. Non-rush on-street parking would give some flexibility to the roadway use during peak and off-peak hours, which is one of the reasons Montlake proposed the idea. Is it a perfect solution? Of course not. Remember, though, that in essence you have extremely limited north-south routes through the neighborhood; there are pros and cons to a road diet on 23rd/24th.

Traffic cut-through on neighborhood streets is an issue that we're going to keep dealing with whether or not any changes are made to 23rd/24th. As the top poster said - unless and until we get over our ridiculous love affair with the automobile, cars have to go somewhere.
Comment by JohnS
February 25, 2010
More space for white liberals on bikes
Great, more space for white liberals on bicycles.
Comment by Daved
February 22, 2010
RE: More space for white liberals on bikes
Do black liberals not ride bicycles?
Comment by 26th ave. s
February 22, 2010
RE: More space for white liberals on bikes
What about yellow or red or plaid liberals?
Comment by eyes
February 23, 2010
I can't say I'm in favor of changing the street
There's way too much traffic as it is, choking it down to one lane in each direction would really slow things up.
Comment by Arch
February 22, 2010
agreed...
love the 'road diet' idea. it IS to narrow for four lanes but we don't need more on-street parking. we DO need a center turn lane. those things really seem to help.
Comment by Liz
February 22, 2010
Crazy talk - but get current data.
Their data is 4 yrs old. Before making any further decisions, they should get current data. It doesn't take much to lay down a few lane counters and collect the data. Also, make sure they take the data during the proper time of the year (not during the summer months when there is no schools in session and people are on summer vacations)
Comment by Pat
February 22, 2010
left turn lane
A left turn lane doesn't help traffic slow-downs with buses. Everyone will still have to stop for them. I love how it says that Montlake residents are requesting the changes, but that the area doesn't include the Montlake section of 24th.

Again, I'd like to know: Are rates of accidents actually higher than those on streets with one lane?

And now that I've thought about it, they are doing serious damage to the only other north-south corridor into the UW. The UW is second only to downtown in terms of people commuting in. Cutting down traffic by half is crazy talk. If I-5 is backed up, people are using 23rd, unless they cut through Roanoke.

Left turn lane isn't enough.
Comment by limes
February 22, 2010
RE: left turn lane
Adding a left turn lane makes it so that we can't open it back up to 4 lanes for rush hour.

Street parking with rush-hour restrictions (like most streets downtown) is far more flexible.

Also, the bus-stops would be in the parking lane, so the bus will have a place to pull out of traffic at stops, and no one gets "stuck" behind the bus.

On the other hand, in a 2 lane with a center left turn lane and no parking, there's nowhere for the bus to turn out and no legal way to pass it.

If left turning drivers hold up traffic, just ban left turns except at arterials. Problem solved.
Comment by Lack Thereof
February 24, 2010
Wider
Instead, shouldn't we be demolishing houses to make way for cars?

Oh wait, that's the 520 project....sorry
Comment by Pat
February 23, 2010
No not the 520 Project
Demolishing houses was part of the RH Thompson Freeway project down 23rd 30 years ago.
Comment by eyes
February 23, 2010
RE: No not the 520 Project
MLK, I believe, not 23rd.
Comment by JohnS
February 25, 2010
more info on road diets
Good info on benefits of road diets, as well as data on traffic volumes served before and after conversion, here:

http://www.walkable.org/assets/downloads/roaddiets.pdf
Comment by wave
February 23, 2010
why stop at Cherry?
I live south of Cherry--where there is even less traffic--any chance they will consider the 2 lane road all the way south?
Comment by tp
February 23, 2010
Being a Suspicious Sort
I think the request to have parking by Montlake is part of a decisive stance against more traffic feeding to the new SR520. Yes 23-24th is a BIG problem. Not sure parking will mitigate that.

The current proposal picked by the legislature committee still has onramps from the Arboretum. Figure the whole traffic picture is gonna get much worse.
Comment by ktkeller
February 23, 2010
New Bridge & Added Traffic?
I am wondering if there would be added traffic on 23rd if the new floating bridge goes in, as it seems to me that traffic out of the Arboretium ( Up Madison ) effects 23rd more than MLK Way. Maybe reducing 23rd's traffic would force a change in MLK Way options.
Comment by David
February 23, 2010
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