posted 12/15/09 11:48 PM | updated 12/15/09 11:48 PM
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Streetcar: 12th/Broadway adds service, Boren duplicates

By scott
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There's quite a few folks who are lobbying to put the First Hill Streetcar on the western side of the neighborhood, closer to downtown and closer to Virginia Mason hospital. And they've got a good argument in that it's on that side of the hill where you have a high density of institutional jobs and where property is already zoned for residential highrises.

But here's what I don't understand: If you work at Virigina Mason hospital, or live in a highrise along Boren, why would you take a twisting turning streetcar to get to a downtown light rail stop? Especially when you have three high frequency bus routes to choose from that will get you there in less time?

For example, the #2 bus runs past the front door of Virginia Mason on Seneca every 10 to 15 minutes during the day, and takes about 5-8 minutes to get to 3rd Avenue where the University St. light rail station is. A Boren streetcar route would add rails to a chunk of the #2 route, duplicating service, and would only be accessible from the ugly-concrete-wall side of the hospital on Boren, not from the main entrance on Seneca.

Or take Swedish, where the #12 bus route runs the length of their multi-block campus along Madison St, with 7-15 minute headways during the day, and 6-10 minutes to get to the University St. light rail station.

Harborview currently has the best bus service of the bunch, with a #3 or #4 bus every 7 to 9 minutes during the day, and a quick 5-8 minute ride down to the Pioneer Square light rail station.

Taking a streetcar from the International District station will usually be the slower, less convenient option in all three cases.

Or, you could have a straight, shorter route using Broadway and 12th Ave, and provide service where there currently isn't any. There are no bus connections north and south on 12th Ave to connect the Seattle U to Capitol Hill. Nor are there any bus routes that can get you from the 12th Ave neighborhood down to SODO. The streetcar would add service there in a place where it's severely needed, giving new commuting options to thousands of Seattle U faculty and staff, thousands of Swedish employees, hundreds of employees and citizens at juvenile/family court, and an area that is primed for dense new residential and street retail.

The next meeting on the streetcar is Tuesday night in Yesler Terrace. Make time to go, check out the routes, and tell the city which ones you like best.

For reference, here's the 12th/Broadway route:

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Only to the ID
How about how long it would take to get to the Capitol Hill station with the Broadway or Boren alternative? You don't even talk about it because you know that your argument doesn't work in that case. Simply put you're cherry picking examples to paint a false picture. If you take a more complete look at this issue I'm sure you'll see that a two-way Broadway is probably the best option.
Comment by Adam Parast
December 16, 2009
RE: Only to the ID
Adam, it’s definitely good to shine a light on cherry-picking. Advocates for any of the alternative streetcar routes have done that from time to time.
But, what Scott’s post tries to do, I think, is take a “more complete look at the issue” as you suggest. The streetcar route will not be the only means of transit connections in the neighborhood. A more complete look should include a look at the existing transit connections. This is something that the SDOT material released this week has not done. I hope they will do that before the next round of public meetings.
Of course there’s a preference expressed by many for travel by streetcar as opposed to bus. But this may be a time when government, having less money, may need to try to do more with less. If, through a continuation of existing bus routes and a new streetcar route we can provide transit service to more neighborhoods, isn’t that at least worth considering?
I hear the argument that a couplet whose branches are separated by as much as 1000 feet fails to provide the highest quality of service to either of the branches. That is a serious argument. But it should be evaluated in a larger context. For example, you seem to imply that the Boren and Broadway denizen will have no transit choice for getting to the Capitol Hill Link station other than the streetcar. And, when you assert in your post on other blogs that the couplet would be “useless” to that rider, that’s not a complete look at the situation.
Scott’s graphic and post describe several other choices. But even that isn’t a full list of the existing choices.... read more
Comment by Bill
December 16, 2009
Trolley improvements
Give a dedicated lane on Madison only for buses. If you really feel crazy, change the 2 routing to go up Madison to Union (Metro's advocated for this for years) as opposed to up Seneca. Now talk about service frequency! Flip side of course is VM folks don't have front-door service. Or maybe have a 2 (like the 3) that only runs up the hill that far and turns back. Many choices there. Metro is already talking about changing the 3/4 routing to use Yesler, which would be a significant Harborview service improvement as you wouldn't have the freeway traffic mess they currently have to deal with, and could instead approach Harborview from the south.

Boils down to who you're trying to serve. The Boren alignment is clearly intended to make the hospitals happy, at the expense of pretty much everyone else.
Comment by JohnS
December 16, 2009
Spread the route out -- 12th and 17th!
I start with a simple premise: a real estate agent told me that any mass transit improvement will raise property values within 1/4 mile of that improvement.

I have a simple objective to maximize: whatever streetcar route is built should maximize the increase in real estate values created by the streetcar route.

Therefore, the opposite sides of the streetcar route should be approximately 8 blocks (1/2 mile = 1/4 mile + 1/4 mile) apart. Assuming that one edge of the route travels Broadway or 12th, the other edge should travel somewhere around 19th.

This turns out to be super because 19th is near the Swedish Cherry Hill address, where construction has already begun on rooms with chairs that will house 3000 (three thousand!) vehicle trips per day.

It seems to me that the streetcar could do a double duty for the economy if it served these ends: (a) covered the most (non-overlapping) area possible, (b) made the greatest reduction in car trips possible.

I don't understand why the suggested routes are so close to each other. In particular, Broadway and 12th are strangely close to each other. Such a streetcar would be a north/south route with similar traffic disruption to a loop which could serve a much larger area.
Comment by Heath Hunnicutt
December 16, 2009
RE: Spread the route out -- 12th and 17th!
Heath,

I appreciate the clearly stated premise and objective - that's rare on a blog comment thread. Now that I think about it, it should be a requirement "please fill out your name, email, premise, and objective for this post." It would save us all some time and frustration.

But to the point, a streetcar couplet (spreading the opposite rail directions over several blocks, as opposed to having both rail directions on the same street) is only effective if the couplet distance is a block or two. Spreading the rail alignments out any further significantly decreases the number of people who ride the streetcar.

However, I definitely agree that streetcars are good for development, among other things. So let's keep building them!
Comment by RFPete
December 16, 2009
12th v. Hospitals
On the other hand, the streetcar runs along the Boren alignment (to, yes, make serving First Hill it's top priority). Those bus hours on the #2, 3, 4, and 12 can then be shifted to serve the need for better N/S transit along 12th (yes, 12th deserves better transit).

The argument always boils down to serving First Hill (eg. the hospitals) or 12th Ave. From a local perspective if you live near 12th (as I do) then the prospect of a streetcar and the pleasant development that comes with it is certainly mouthwatering.

But looking at things regionally, the economic heft of the hospitals is huge. Health care (and health care research) could be Seattle's biggest asset. And a streetcar would indeed be of service to this asset.

12th Ave deserves to be improved. My vote would go toward making it a "complete street" which would included traffic calming, dedicated bike lanes, and better bus service. However the streetcar was initially funded to serve First Hill and it makes sense for it to remain that way.
Comment by RFPete
December 16, 2009
RE: 12th v. Hospitals
..."Those bus hours on the #2, 3, 4, and 12 can then be shifted to serve the need for better N/S transit along 12th (yes, 12th deserves better transit)" ...

What about the people who live in Judkins Park, Madrona, and other parts of the Central District and North Capitol Hill who use the #2,3,4, and 12 to get to and from downtown? Would reducing or eliminating those routes affect them?
Comment by Bill
December 16, 2009
RE: 12th v. Hospitals
We did just fine without those buses during last year's snowstorm. We don't need them! I'm kidding I take the 3 or 27 everyday to work and I walked downtown during snopocolpse. Those buses are certainly important.

Bus routes will change when the streetcar opens, hopefully mobility for everyone in the area will be improved. I just don't think the current status of individual bus routes should figure into the route planning. The broader issues are more important, specifically do we use the streetcar as a catalyst for development or to improve the mobility of existing development.
Comment by RFPete
December 16, 2009
Is there anything?
I hate that feeling that we need a train line on one street or another because we're desperate -- i.e., we think there's little chance we'll get additional lines in our lifetime.

Could Seattle ever have:

Frequent and efficient lines running North-South down Boren, 12th, 19th, 23rd & MLK, interconnected with frequent and efficient East-West lines running down Yesler, Madison, Pike / Pine, John, Aloha and Roanoke?

I like streetcars a lot more than buses, but trains aren't going to work on all of those streets, due to their grade. So, a better transit system is going to require either novel approaches like people movers / escalators, or more buses in dedicated lanes, with therefore with less car parking.

I like that Scott is factoring in the bus routes. I think it'd be great if the streetcar plan came with the means to push for more / better interconnecting bus routes and dedicated lanes / less parking on those streets. If it did, e.g., maybe Boren would be a faster train route; or maybe a Madison bus route would be so efficient that the train would be obviously better on 12th.
Comment by jayf
December 16, 2009
RE: Is there anything?
I agree, and it's clear from conversations at last night's open house that (a) the station locations are far from set in stone, and (b) there has been very, very little thought given to connections with existing Metro routes. I would strongly encourage folks who are going to tonight and tomorrow night's open houses to talk to the planners (and leave comments) on stop locations and transit integration.

I also have to echo Bill's thought that taking service away from the very, very heavily-utilized 2/3/4/12 routes has to be looked at very, very, VERY carefully. You would need to look at those routes along with the 8, 10, 11 and 14 IMO, and arguably also include the 36, 7, 9 and 60. Saying you could grab hours from those lines to create a new route on 12th is, again, not looking at a big enough picture.
Comment by JohnS
December 16, 2009
RE: Is there anything?
I think every bus route in the area is very heavily used. If a new bus route along 12th is the best solution, those bus hours should come from someplace else - like Enumclaw. It's just a matter of getting rid of 40-40-20.
Comment by RFPete
December 16, 2009
RE: Is there anything? / GRADES?
Streetcars don't work on grades?

Really?

If I say "the san francisco treat!" what SFX comes to mind?

SDOT says a SC can go up minor or boren without trouble. They also have alignment options including that little hill south of the Harvard Market QFC (Union Street between boylston and Broadway). So Seattle's tame grades aren't really much to worry about.
Comment by map
December 20, 2009
Get your own streetcar
I think the idea of a bi-directional streetcar on 12th is great. So great that the neighborhood should be able to make a strong enough case for the city to fund it. In other words, stop trying to steal the First Hill Streetcar and get your own. If it's really that great of an idea and will be the economic boon that everyone promises, it should be no problem getting funding for it.

The First Hill Streetcar project exists because of the advocacy of the First Hill Improvement Association. They are responsible for getting Sound Transit to fund it with ST2 and their needs should come first. 12th Avenue is not part of First Hill, not geographically and not by any official designation.

Personally I like the Broadway/Boylston alignment. It serves Yesler Terrace, Harborview, Swedish, Seattle U, the dense residential development around Seneca, the resurgent Pike/Pine neighborhood and avoids the congestion of Boren and Madison. I would like to see this built along with a new electric trolley bus route running the full length of 12th from Jackson to Aloha. Eliminating route 9 and reconfiguring some of the First Hill bus service could provide enough resources for a new bus route on 12th.
Comment by Jay
December 16, 2009
Get your own
The streetcar is being paid for by --- the First Hill Improvment Association?

Seriously, the outcome does not have to be one where Virginia Mason wins and others lose, or vice/versa. Why not try to work for a solution where everyone comes out better?
Comment by Sense of Entitlement
December 16, 2009
12th has fewer benefits
The areas to the east are just as well served by bus line numbers 2, 3, 4, and 12 as the areas to the west. Just add a couple minutes. The bus routes would still be the preferred routes to get downtown.

The only ones who benefit from 12th Avenue proposal are those who live or work closer to 12th than to Broadway. That's far fewer people than those who live or work closer to Broadway. In fact, much of the area within a short walk of 12th is zoned single family residential or low rise/low density (east of 14th). It won't hurt to lose those riders. The areas between Broadway and 12th (e.g. Seattle U) would be just as well served by a Broadway line and the area between 12th and 14th is still short walk to Broadway.

The splitting of the line seems ridiculous -- a compromise that works well for no one except those who live or work between the north and south lines.

Another benefit of the Broadway route is the possibility of running it though the heart of the new Yesler Terrace development. That area can become a model urban village if get this right.
Comment by MLK and Cherry
December 16, 2009
RE: [Disagree] 12th has fewer benefits
Note that the 12th/Broadway Couplet in no way excludes Yesler Terrace routing - if you looked at the maps last night (or tonight or tomorrow night) you'll see that the northbound Broadway service on the couplet would work exactly the same as the northbound service on 2-way Broadway, i.e., either way Yesler Terrace gets a stop right on Yesler at Broadway, assuming those stop locations persist.

You're missing the connections the Couplet would provide for folks who live on the 2/3/4/12/etc. to get around Cap Hill and up and down 12th and to the ID. Right now most of us who take those routes don't go to Broadway or head south to the ID on transit because the connections are so poor.
Comment by JohnS
December 16, 2009
the Open house #2 and Virginia Mason
The open house was very informative.
I love the #2. It serves VM, the Central District along Union and Madrona Park and goes north to Queen Anne and is heavily used. While I have several preferences including the leg along 12th and one that includes a leg along 14th Avenue South between E.Yesler and E.Jackson for many of the reasons stated, I can understand many of the arguments for other routes, but not the one being mounted by Virginia Mason. The original platform was not near VM, which already has service to its door by the #2, and therefore there is no sense that it was part of any promise. Anyone wishing to access the light rail from VM could easily use the #2 to get downtown in a matter of minutes.
Comment by joanna
December 16, 2009
Spread it out!
I enthusiastically support the comment by Heath to spread out the line.

A 2-3 block wide loop is a huge waste of resources.

A bi-directional streetcar using a single-street's track one side north, the other south (with a V track changer/turn-table at the ends of each) is the most awesome idea - and could cover twice as much distance north-south for the same price. (Someone smarter than me would have to figure out how to switch the directions/lanes at the end-points - but I'm sure it could be done.)
Comment by East Boston St.
December 16, 2009
RE: Spread it out!
I know the single track (with 2 or 3 rails) plus passing section option works well for funiculars, where the motion of both trains is synchronized because usually the trains are tied together and, i.e., both trains always reach the passing section at the same time. But, I don't know if this is really workable with multiple independent trains?

Doesn't this arrangement require that trains in one direction need to stop and wait at passing points for the train in the opposite direction. And, the actual passing maneuver itself needs to be synchronized / timed correctly, or else the trains will hit each other (like what happened with the Monorail).
Comment by jayf
December 16, 2009
RE: Spread it out!
That works great if you have a short distance and only a couple vehicles. The longer the distance and the greater the number of vehicles, the more passing track you have to put in, and the more complex it gets.

ST is probably not going to go for much farther east than 12th, any more than SDOT will. If we want streetcar service on 19th north of Union, or 23rd, or MLK, we're going to have to figure out how to make that happen.
Comment by JohnS
December 17, 2009
Scott's buses vs streetcars argument has flaws that oughtta stop it before it gets out of the gate
First:
seattle.gov's Survey data shows that First Hill residents' TRANSIT travel/commute time is much HIGHER than surrounding neighborhoods (Like Capitol & First Hill), despite all that bus service.
Secondly:
Streetcars can do things that buses cannot. Like move more people per trip (you can add cars to Streetcars)
Like not burn any gas. (Yay for clean air!)
Like not (likely) get rerouted because of budget cuts (yay permanence!)
Like have dedicated ROW lanes and modified signalling (Yay transit-prioritized -rather than SUV oriented- transportation systems!)

Commentors: Please don't try and paint the hospitals as the bad guys. Sound Transit and the city have signed a contract saying the streetcar must serve First Hill residents and must provide for the significant employment centers there. I'm on board with putting the whole thing on Minor. All of Minor, as soon as you come north out of Yesler Terrace. Then run it north on a yet unnamed route, like Harvard or Olive Way.

Unlike the SLUT, please make this sucker fast & have high ridership so people are impressed and want to vote for more streetcars (like... one up Yesler and one up 12th!!!!).
Comment by map
December 20, 2009
RE: Scott's buses vs streetcars argument has flaws that oughtta stop it before it gets out of the gate
Electric trolley buses don't burn gas. There's no indication in any maps I've seen that anyone is planning for anything longer than single-car streetcars on this route. Seattle tore out its entire streetcar network in the 30s and 40s, and the trolley routes that currently exist are in essence the same routes...so permanence, while it sounds good, is far from set in stone (and perhaps doesn't mean what you think it does). Finally, there are no plans I have seen for any dedicated ROW for any of the First Hill proposals...and TSP can work for buses too.

The hospitals deserve good transit service, yes; giving the hospitals good service in no way precludes giving lots of other folks good transit service as well. The point that I believe is being made above is that many hospital employees already have better transit access (door-to-door) than many of the residents of the surrounding neighborhoods. Will all the dedicated bus routes and shuttles disappear if a streetcar line is built?

Finally, the SLUT has a straight shot on Westlake for much of its alignment and is still painfully slow. I'm not clear how a straight shot on Minor is going to be any faster...nor has it appeared on any planning documents, anywhere.
Comment by JohnS
December 20, 2009
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