County Councilmember Endorses 12th Ave Streetcar Loop

By scott
(1 votes) (report abuse)
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PhillipsEndorsementofLoop.pdf

The First Hill streetcar project is slowly moving forward. The city has signed an agreement with Sound Transit to build and operate the streetcar, and now it's just a matter of nailing down the route and other design details before construction can begin. Under that agreement, Sound Transit will pass money to the city to pay the construction costs and the yearly cost of operations.

A determined group of citizens, businesses, and institutions have been working for the past year to advocate that 12th Avenue is included in the streetcar route. It's a street that is prime for new retail and residential development, is level and walkable, and is the only north/south arterial in this part of town without any form of transit.

That group has been out talking to a variety of government officials and elected leaders, and it appears that one very important one agrees that 12th Avenue should be in the mix. Last month county councilmember Larry Phillips, whose district includes Capitol Hill & First Hill, send a letter to Mayor Nickels and city councilmembers to advocate for the 12th Ave option, specifically for a loop route that would run on 12th Avenue in one direction and Broadway in the other:


The proposed 12th Avenue and Broadway loop is a promising concept for serving a greater number of residents, creating a north-south public transit option on currently unserved 12th Avenue, and catalyzing economic development on vacant and underutilized properties in the area. Further, as you know, King County government owns and operates the Youth Services Center - King County's Juvenile Court and Detention facility - a significant regional facility located along the 12th Avenue corridor. Currently the site is highly automobile-oriented, featuring a large parking lot which the community is interested in seeing re-devleoped into a denser, more pedestrian and transit oriented facility.

A final decision on the streetcar route will be made by the city council, possibly as soon as this spring. Stay tuned for public meetings and other outreach opportunities from the city as they collect feedback on the various route options.

12th/Broadway Loop route for First Hill streetcar

tags: Streetcar, Transit, 12th Ave + add tags
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posted on Wed, Nov 11, 2009 12:11 PM
last updated on Wed, Nov 11, 2009 12:11 PM
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This will open up our neighborhood to access byHeath Hunnicutt2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I cannot wait for those who are currently stuck hanging out down by King Street Station to finally have an easy, cheap ride up to the AM/PM on 12th and Jefferson.

Or wait, maybe that would be kind of awful.
RE: This will open up our neighborhood to access byjayf2 months ago (4 votes) (report abuse)
A train generally attracts the better clientele of the urban transportation scene. So, if train brings junkies to the neighborhood, at least they're going to be the ones in business suits.
Schedule Again? 2012? byFurious Coder2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
If this actually gets going within the next 2-3 years, it will be a nice holdover until we get an East Link station at Rainier & I90, connecting a large portion of the CD to downtown and Cap Hill via some kind of rail. Personally, I can see eliminating all downtown car trips by using this streetcar and Link, even though it will be about a 15 minute walk to the nearest station.
Ugh.. I hope note bynicpottier2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Take one of the best N/S biking arterials and turn it into a biking hazard. I sure hope this doesn't happen. Someone explain to me how street cars are better than buses? All I can see is they are more expensive, less flexible, and put tracks in the road that make cycling dangerous.
RE: Ugh.. I hope note bySafeandSound2 months ago (4 votes) (report abuse)
The upfront costs are higher for streetcars than buses–but those costs are made up over time in lower operating and maintenance costs. In transit you get what you pay for.

No emissions & less noise - much better for the environment.

New streetcar and light rail lines usually come with an upgraded street experience from better stops, landscaping, new roadbeds, and better sidewalks, to name a few (including bike lanes).
RE: Ugh.. I hope note bynicpottier2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse)
The trolley buses are more expensive to run than a railed trolley? Sources please, would like to see that.

Seattle already has an eletric bus infrastructure, that works just fine. Why tear up the streets to put in rails? Just because it looks nicer? Can't we spend our money on something that would make a more dramatic difference, like more light rail?
RE: Ugh.. I hope note byjayf2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
nicpottier: are you good with trains, just not street trolleys?
RE: Ugh.. I hope note byAndrew Taylor2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
I bike on the SLUT route occasionally. Despite what the experts at open houses told me, my bike wheels easily fit into the rail grooves. It's un-nerving to ride right next to the tracks: steel can be slippery when wet. No room to ride between rail and curb (and that puts you next to potentially opening car doors). Finish up riding between the rails as the safest alternative.

What to do if a streetcar comes up behind me? Not that they go significantly faster than even slow cyclists. Not happened yet, but I could just get on and use my Orca card.

Have ridden on SLUT with bike when it was raining: simple to do, but the SLUT was hardly what you might call crowded.
RE: Ugh.. I hope note bykstineback2 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
Because 12th is a major bike route (one that I ride a lot!) the 12th avenue group that has been working on the streetcar conducted a "bike audit" over the summer to investigate where the bike hazards would be and issue a report to SDOT on our findings. I will post that on the 12th Ave Blog soon. There are pics on there of this work here: http://capitolhillhousing.org/12thave/?p=834

As far as I know, the 12th Ave group is the only neighborhood group working on making the First Hill Streetcar more bike friendly in order to avoid the terrible problems that the SLUT has. As a result, we have conducted outreach to major bike advocacy groups to get them engaged as early as possible in the alignment discussions and undertaken this work to look at route hazards.

Please write to your Council Members to articulate concerns about this issue! http://www.seattle.gov/Council/

We can have the bus vs. streetcar discussion over and over again, but the fact remains that this is a FULLY FUNDED streetcar line (passed in the Sound Transit ballot measure in 2008) and it WILL BE BUILT.
RE: Ugh.. I hope note bydel2 months ago (4 votes) (report abuse)
Many of us would prefer a streetcar, and it serves a route to work for my neighbors that currently requires 2 busses. Cyclists already dominate the street I live on, snot shotting the parked cars and screaming obscenities at children if kids ride their bikes on their own street. When a traffic island was put in cyclists spraypainted "this murders bikers" on it (because it stopped them from traveling downhill at breakneck speeds fast enough to seriously injure anyone around the blind corner at the bottom of the hill). I'm for anything that slows bikes down so less ranting, screaming, militant spandexers yell at me as I'm trying to get out of my driveway or cross the street. And I'm all for mass transit that serves the masses rather than catering to a vocal minority.
RE: Ugh.. I hope note bynicpottier2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
jayf: I love light rail, trains are fantastic when they are traffic independent.

Street cars are not! They will get stuck in traffic worse than buses because they can't pull around them. They also are less flexible, and as my primary point is, create a very real hazard for bikers.
RE: Ugh.. I hope note bynicpottier2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
kstine: thanks for the information, I'll make sure to contact them.

Hadn't seen the running down the center option, I would support that, both because of traffic independence and it would make biking far more reasonable.

I have to ride down Westlake now and then and it is always shocking to me how dangerous that main biking arterial has become. I always feel like I'm in some kind of race to get to the other end before a street car comes. I am a far more experienced cyclist than most, so I haven't gotten hung up on the tracks yet, but a friend of mine who just started cycling fell just the other day from having her REAR wheel catch as she crossed them.

We all want the same thing, more, greener options to get around the city. Let's just all be considerate to each other as we plan them. New transportation options, especially permanent fixtures like this, should make sure not to discourage other even better transportation options like cycling.
RE: Ugh.. I hope note byLack Thereof2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse)
Streetcar Pros over buses:
*Smoother, more comfortable ride (which is very important when you're trying to get the upper classes to ride)
*Not stuck in traffic (due to traffic signal preemption clearing any congestion in the path of the streetcar)
*More schedule reliability (see above)
*Lower operating costs over the long term - buses are cheap to purchase but expensive to operate. Even the electric ones are more expensive to operate and maintain than almost every other transit method.
I hope not too byjonathan2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Agree with nicpottier. I do not foresee streetcar tracks coming with an "upgraded street experience". Passengers need to step from the curb onto the streetcar so there is no place for a bike lane.

This can be seen on Westlake, where there are no bike lanes and the streetcar tracks plus car traffic create an extreme hazard for bikes. Westlake, like 12th, was a natural bike route, but it isn't now.
transit rider byjtmc2 months ago (4 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I have to wonder if people that are advocates for the bus over streetcars take public transportation much.

I bike and bus all about the City - these are the only ways i get around town really (except for an occasional cab) - and I can tell you that the light rail and the SLUT are so much more of a pleasant and more efficient means of travel over the bus. There is so many things that go wrong when a public transit apparatus if it is not on a fixed and timed route. To many wild car variables slow the bus down!

And as one of the people that take 12th from the Jefferson to Pike - I can say I would happily adjust my route (probably to 18th where it is mostly a one lane road) for the sake of a streetcar.

The streetcar is just what 12th needs to help improve mobility and the overall quality of life in this corridor. I hope so much that it happens!!
RE: transit rider bynicpottier2 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse)
jtmc: I ride the #2 and #48 all the time, I either bike or take the bus.

I think you are confusing light rail and street cars. Light rail IS traffic independent and can run on a fixed schedule. I love light rail and enthusiastically support the link light rail, it's about time!

Street cars are nothing but buses on rails. They run on roads where cars are, will get stuck in traffic just the same as a bus and if anything are MORE likely to get stuck than a bus because they are stuck on the rail, while a bus has some flexibility to pull around a car that is blocking the way. (within reason, since they are stuck to the overheads)

So with a street car, you get worse traffic independence, at a higher cost, with less long term flexibility all the while creating a hazard for cyclists on one of the main thoroughfares while you are at it.
Close Broadway byJMan2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Anyone remember the Simpsons episode where everyone get behind the monorail?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw

I get the feeling that the SLUT and this 12th Ave Streetcar are selling to the trendy European idea of streetcars than a real affordable solution. Why can't we expand the electric bus system to cover this loop? Is the streetcar a cheaper option? Or is it a trendier option?

If we want to reduce carbon emissions do we get more bang for our buck on the streetcar or expanding the electric bus system onto popular existing bus routes like the 48?

I also hear the streetcar is great because it's a "permanent structure"... Sort of like the Yesler cablecar? Or the Madison St cablecar? Or the *gasp* 12th Ave line that ran from Beacon Hill to Volunteer park? None of these were permanent, why would this new thing be?

As a sidenote I'd also like to see streetcars that are made in *America* and bring good *jobs* home. I remember when the SLUT opened up part of the sales pitch was the thing was built in the Czech Republic "Where they never abandoned the idea of streetcars" Was it Americans that abandoned streetcars or pretensious snobs that abandoned US?
transit couplets byBeacon Hill transit rider2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
One-way couplets, such as proposed for the FH streetcar on 12th and Broadway only work well when the streets are close together and an easy walk between on each cross street. The reality here is that 12th and Broadway are too far apart to work conveniently for transit riders.

Consider riders coming from downtown and going to Swedish Hospital. They are expected to get off on 12th and walk clear across the SU campus to get to their destination? Or are they expected to ride around the loop via John Street, wait through the end-of-the line layover, and then backtrack south to get to Swedish? Either one is terribly inconvenient and will basically result in diminished ridership for the streetcar.

Idea: If 12th Ave is a developing street which warrants transit service (and I agree it does!), then we should be working with King County Metro to get a bus route on it, one that does not subject its riders to the inconveniences of a one-way streetcar loop.
RE: transit couplets bykstineback2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
First, a new bus will never be put on 12th because of the crappy 40-40-20 rule, which means Seattle only gets 20% of overall KC new service. 12th has been working on getting a bus for 20 years and look how far it has gotten! And, when the streetcar comes, if i goes to Bway, Metro will likely take away the 9 instead of moving it, because they are looking for any way to cut service these days.

The First Hill Streetcar is FULLY FUNDED and coming. It is not like the SLUT, which was paid for by property owners. It is funded by Sound Transit. Even if you think that buses are a better solution, now is a pretty bad time to be arguing that Metro should beef up bus service, when they have not enough money to operate what they have!

The 12th and Bway LOOP is not a couplet, it is a LOOP. And it would go north on Bway and south on 12th (because of the watermain below 12th east side).
Already fully funded byjoanna2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
FULLY FUNDED is important as it is the one and possibly only opportunity for 12th Avenue to be served by transit.

I use public transit daily, especially during weekdays.

While I am a big fan of the trolleys and they are generally a better deal, this is a project that is going to be built and Seattle should get the most it can for the $s spent on the streetcar. The route for the street car on 12th will accomplish that, as it will not only accomplish the promised transportation from First Hill, but it will also add the needed service along 12th.

My sympathies go out to the bicyclists and I hope that they can work with the project to ensure that 12th Avenue remains a good option for them.
Opportunity bykt2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Good to see this discussion! I've always seen this as our only opportunity in the 'real world' to get transit on 12th Street any time soon. I'd hate to see people throw the baby out with the bathwater just because they think buses are better than fixed rail, or because of the SLUT built where there was really no needs to support. It's been pretty bad that the King County facility really has no transit. It's pretty difficult to get from the CD to Pike Pine or Cap Hill without walking, and not everyone can walk. I remember a long thread on this here about the challenges people have getting to Cap Hill from the CD. Plus, this will be a great connection to the light rail system. I also see no need for this to be a track versus cyclist issue because advocates for the streetcar are also cyclists, and are already working together to do something sensible and safe here.
Bike tires verses transit tracks byDavid2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I noted a few valid concerns about bike tires slipping into the transit tracks, and wonder if there are options that could possibly be adaptable from the regular train crossing areas. I have seen where there appears to be depressible rubber peices put into the track slots, where as the train wheels cross over, they press the rubber material down, and then pop back once the train wheels have passed. The result seems to be a reduced impact to car and bike tire passage.

As a person that walks and drives our neighborhood, I am glad to see that we as a community are supporting the various alternative commuting options ( bikes, car, rail, and walkers ).
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