Coffee Shop Coming to 25th & Union Next Week - Update

Thank you, good to know. I'm so excited.

Great! Let's hope that it's a good roaster, like Vivace, Stumptown, Victrola, or Lighthouse (not burnt-tasting Caffe Vita!), and that the baristas know what they are doing. It's so frustrating to pay $3 for an espresso drink that sucks, as happens at many coffee shops.

For what it is worth and if it matters to people, the owner, Will Little is heavily involved with the (in-my-opinion) misogynist Mars Hill Church.

See what he does, with links to more about MHC, at: http://downtownseattle.marshillchurch.org/2009/07/07/meet-mh
AND read his tweets:
http://twitter.com/wclittle

Read more about Mars Hill from Salon and NYTimes:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/09/13/righteous/
AND
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html?pag

So?

You know, as long as they don't proselytize to me while I'm in there, I don't usually concern myself with a business owner's private religious beliefs.

Sure, but as an individual, not as his business. Do you put this much effort into your persecution of other religious denominations that don't share your beliefs or just this particular one?

As for me, unless s/he starts handing out prayer scrolls with every cup of coffee, I'm not going to worry about whether or not my barista is attending mosque, temple, church or brunch.

Sincerely,
-A committed Ref 71 supporter/advocate/volunteer, and future customer of this cafe.

America...can't separate politics and religion.
Seattle...can't separate coffee and religion.

I am completely open to freedom of whatever beliefs people want to have. What I don't want is part of my money being donated to a cause that I am strongly against. If the owner donates money to the church, he won't se a penny of mine.

Let's be clear about the debate here: It is one thing to want to hold a person's religious belief against him or her for the purpose persecution. It is quite another to make decisions about where to spend one's money based on what business owners support in the community. No one is talking about this business owner's belief, per se, but about his involvement, AS A PASTOR, with an organized religion in our community that is attempting to spread misogynistic and homophobic values. The idea that spending one's dollars at a business is a completely separate event from values one supports in the community is exactly how we have gotten to the point in our consumeristic society where businesses/corporations with highly questionable values have been able to flourish and have huge impact on societal values.

I, who am 100% gay all the way, will probably stop by there and try the coffee out. if the coffee's good, i'll probably come again. Why? because whether or not i agree with the owner's beliefs, i'm not going to hide out in other coffee shops that i ASSUME support my beliefs or sexuality. I'm going to be gay in that coffee shop, might even smooch on my partner while I'm there. exposure to people who have different beliefs/opinions/thoughts are what make a good (and tolerant) city. who knows, maybe if there are lots of customers who don't have equal rights that go through there all the time, we can begin to spread more understanding, rather than just encourage our ignorance by assuming what the owners/baristas/other customers think.

Dear Catholic, Jew, Lutheran, Black, White, Gay, Lesbian, Asain, etc, etc.

Please open up a quality coffee shop in the old Central Grind space. I promise I will frequent it regardless of what religion you practice. I am an open and accepting straight, white male in my mid-30s with plenty of disposable income to spend in your store every day on the way to work. By the way I am aetheist or a non-practicing Christian depending on the day - I hope you don't hold it against me. In the meantime I am going to visit Will Little's establishment to support somebody that is bringing a much needed service to our neighborhood. I might even see "gay all they way" smooching on his boyfriend while I am there. If I boycotted your establishment because of your Mars Hill link then I should probably also boycott Fuel (lesbian owner), Sbux (started by a Jew), Cafe Vita (owner wears purple pants), etc....that is the point being missed.

Will Little - You have my support and you can't open this place fast enough!

Oh please, and another local restaurant owner sometimes leads prayer at the mosque up the street, but I don't see anyone digging into his position on gay marriage or supposed mysogony. You people sound like you're about to head out on a witch hunt here, googling this poor man and dissecting his life. All you need are
some pitchforks and torches. Look at yourselves.

Mars hill...they are AGAINST Ref. 71...i'm a gay man and live with my partner in the Central District...i feel very comfortable in the CD and hope this new coffee shop continues what the CD stands for...a great place for EVERYONE to live in...

I clipped the following from the Church's doctrinal statement. Look at (part of) what WL believes about ALL his potential patrons:

"The Total Depravity of Man: ....man is totally depraved and of himself utterly unable to remedy his lost condition." http://www.marshillchurch.org/about/what-we-believe

BTW: I didn't find Mr. Little's name on the pastors list.

I will never go to this place...we don't need backwards thinking in our neighbothood...we just don't!!

Good luck to you!!

I have a pretty good idea of where I stand on this and an anecdotal case study to back it up. I loved Vegan Garden, now Loving Hut. My husband is vegetarian and I'm a lover of Vietnamese food so it was a perfect meeting of two worlds. When we first started going there we knew it was run by a religious organization; all the staff felt very strongly about veganism, there were pamphlets available detailing their beliefs available, etc. We loved the food and were totally OK with eating there even though we didn't share their beliefs. And then the TV went up. Non-stop any time all day long Supreme Master Television was on in the background, and was not quiet. Suddenly their religious beliefs and dubious claims invaded our dining experience. We stopped going. Also they changed their name to "Loving Hut." Seriously? Geez.

This is generally how I feel about patronizing local establishments. It's nearly impossible to know what your money is supporting even if you ask. As long as the services/goods are provided in a comfortable atmosphere I'm gonna go. As soon as the cult TV goes up, I'm moving on.

Cortona is the place in classical mythology where Milo of Cortona, among other feats, grew super-strong by carrying a bull calf and lifting it daily as it grew larger and larger--he was finally able to carry around a full-grown bull. Maybe that's some kind of metaphor...

This is an interesting debate. On the one hand, Will's got a right to his beliefs and to be active in a church community. It's also not practical to use a religious litmus test when determining where to do business.

On the other hand lies a political element that is harder for me to ignore. The Salon article referenced above talks about Mars Hill's goal of influencing Seattle public policy. As a leader in the church, Will is a part of that policy machinery. My assumption is that he's giving 5-10% of his after-tax income to the church, so a case can be made that if I patronize Cortona, I am directly supporting the public policy objectives of Mars Hill.

Mars Hill is an extremely conservative organization that aims to limit the rights of women. I want to give Will the benefit of the doubt, but the politics of his church may lead me to go elsewhere.

Instead of any kind of boycott, I think the gayest of the gay should make it a point to go in there as often as possible and flamingly gay it up!

YES! AND BRING OUT ALL OF THE GBLT PARTAAAY lets not hate lets celebrate! We will change their way of thinking.

I think we should have GBLT meetings in his loft meeting space...

This is not about Will Little's Christianity. This is about Mars Hill and Resurgence. On February 25th, 2008 Mark Driscoll the founder of Mars HIll and Resurgence had John Piper come to speak at a Resurgence event. John Piper is from desiring God drafted this proposal that was adopted by the Baptist movement in Colorado. Mark Driscoll supports this through Resurgence. Please make sure you know what you are supporting as much as you can. Thank you for reading.

"Beliefs about Homosexual Behavior and Ministering to Homosexual Persons

Resolution Passed by the Baptist General Conference in Annual Meeting Estes Park, Colorado
By John Piper June 27, 1992


We the delegates to the 114th Annual Meeting of the Baptist General Conference gathering in Estes Park, Colorado, June 22-28, 1992, endorse the following two-part resolution:

Part One
Our affirmation that the Bible is the infallible Word of God with "supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct," and our affirmation that "a Christian should live for the glory of God" include the following six beliefs about heterosexuality and homosexuality:

1. We believe that heterosexuality is God's revealed will for humankind and that, since God is loving, a chaste and faithful expression of this orientation (whether in singleness or in marriage) is the ideal to which God calls all people.

2. We believe that a homosexual orientation is a result of the fall of humanity into a sinful condition that pervades every person. Whatever biological or familial roots of homosexuality may be discovered, we do not believe that these would sanction or... read more cuse homosexual behavior, though they would deepen our compassion and patience for those who are struggling to be free from sexual temptations.

3. We believe there is hope for the person with a homosexual orientation and that Jesus Christ offers a healing alternative in which the power of sin is broken and the person is freed to know and experience his or her true identity in Christ and in the fellowship of his Church.

4. We believe that this freedom is attained through a process which includes recognizing homosexual behavior as sin, renouncing the practice of homosexual behavior, rediscovering healthy, nonerotic friendships with people of the same sex, embracing a moral sexual lifestyle, and in the age to come, rising from the dead with a new body free from every sinful impulse. This process parallels the similar process of sanctification needed in dealing with heterosexual temptations as well. We believe that this freedom comes through faith in Jesus Christ, by the power of his Spirit.

5. We believe that all persons have been created in the image of God and should be accorded human dignity. We believe therefore that hateful, fearful, unconcerned harassment of persons with a homosexual orientation should be repudiated. We believe that respect for persons with a homosexual orientation involves honest, reasoned, nonviolent sharing of facts concerning the immorality and liability of homosexual behavior. On the other hand, endorsing behavior which the Bible disapproves endangers persons and dishonors God.

6. We believe that Christian churches should reach out in love and truth to minister to people touched by homosexuality, and that those who contend Biblically against their own sexual temptation should be patiently assisted in their battle, not ostracized or disdained. However, the more prominent a leadership role or modelling role a person holds in a church or institution of the Conference, the higher will be the expectations for God's ideal of sexual obedience and wholeness. We affirm that both heterosexual and homosexual persons should find help in the church to engage in the Biblical battle against all improper sexual thoughts and behaviors.

Part Two

We further endorse the following affirmation as an implication of the previous six beliefs.

Since beliefs about the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, like beliefs about the sinfulness of lying, stealing, murder, greed, etc., are an essential part of our commitment to the supreme authority of the Bible in all matters of faith and conduct, and since a person who believes that lying, stealing, murder or greed are Biblically acceptable lifestyles would not and should not be deemed qualified to serve in the leadership of our Conference, or teach in its educational institutions, or serve as pastors of Baptist General Conference churches, or as principals or teachers of all church-sponsored schools, or as missionaries of the Baptist General Conference,

therefore we affirm that, in the same way, those who believe that homosexual behavior is a Biblically acceptable lifestyle are not qualified to serve in the leadership of the Conference, or to teach in its educational institutions, or to serve as pastors of Baptist General Conference Churches, or as principals or teachers of all church sponsored schools, or as missionaries of the Baptist General Conference.

We further affirm that this affirmation is simply an effort to make explicit the implicit religious consensus of the Baptist General Conference concerning the meaning of Article One (The Word of God) and Article Eight (Christian Conduct) of our Affirmation of Faith, adopted in 1951.

© Desiring God

Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter the wording in any way and do not charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is preferred. Any exceptions to the above must be approved by Desiring God.

Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: desiringGod.org"

Is this what tolerance and diversity look like? Investigate the local shop owner for his beliefs and then try to malign him and raise a public outcry against him? Are you doing this to the other Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, etc business owners in the central district? Moreover, has this guy personally investigated you, what you believe, or threatened to picket you or any other homosexuals? This looks like a hypocritical scare tactic from a person who wants tolerance but is himself intolerant.

I say practice what you preach and let the guy have his own beliefs and his own business. We're all entitled to them, even if we disagree.

I support local business and I support freedom of religion. As a consumer and taxpayer in a time when gays are the target of persecution by public vote/ majority rule (which no other minority group in history has ever had the 'pleasure' of experiencing), and in a city where there are *so many* great local independent coffee shops, I simply will not support this establishment.

I won't picket/protest outside the shop, but if it comes up in conversation, I won't have an issue with informing local shoppers what their dollars may indirectly support if they do patronize this establishment.
I bet there are fantastic causes that Will supports through Mars Hill, but I can also support them through my own direct action and through choosing local businesses that promote equality for everyone.

In summary: it's Seattle, it's 2009, and people feel strongly about treating everyone fairly under the law. Of course everyone's entitled to their own beliefs as consumers are to their choices. If this business supports denying any civil rights in any direct or indirect way, it should not be a surprise that you won't get everyone's support in the neighborhood. "Nuthin' personal, right?"

Had a good americano this morning. Didn't talk politics, yet. The owner wasn't there.
They say hours are 6a-10p daily.

Very well put emark. I WAS very excited about having a coffee shop 100 yards away from my front door. I'm another local resident that will pass right by their doors to get my daily coffee.

Revbdh - I sense far more hate and intolerance in your post than in any of Will's. It seems like an obvious double standard that those of you calling for tolerance are so intolerant of Will's beliefs. It is a two way street. We do still live in a country where we are allowed to have different opinions and moral beliefs. It is shocking to me that many of you would call for a boycott of his business based on what you assume about his beliefs and yet, if a Christian were to call for a boycott of a gay-owned business, there would be a riot. Let this man open his business, support your community and if you want to know what his beliefs are and why, TALK to him - seems like he's open to the idea...

To those of you who disagree with Will's purported religious beliefs and still plan to try out his shop - good for you - that is tolerance and community in action and will make where you live a better place.

Mr. Little has been programed to think that people born gay need to be cured. To be masquerading as a hip, urban, open-minded individual, but in all reality, he is a closed minded bigot that thinks he's the superior human version, now that really bothers me. I for one am not calling for a boycott but they will not get my business. I live right next to the shop and I am truly saddened. The money I don't spend there will go to human rights causes.

Mars Hill is a very messed up, evangelical cult that preaches hate against homosexuals and women. And they are great at it. They have taken the wolves in sheep's clothing verse from the bible and to a new level.

people who are saying they are ok with going to a place that doesn't evangelize, misses the whole point of this cafe. The cafe itself is the evangelizing. In pastor Will's mind, this area needs to be saved from the evils of homosexuals and their agenda. Men need to be straightened out, get married, and get their women out of the workplace and into the home where they should be serving their men without question.

Mars Hill preaches that homosexuality is "...a cancer that needs to be eradicated." If you agree, support this coffee shop. If you don't think this sort of extreme right wing evangelical religious cult should be trying to convert your neighbors to women hating homophobes, go to any one of the several options nearby. It's the right thing to do.

Amy3 - I directed that comment at revbdh and she was the one who said, "Speaking for myself, I will not harken your doorstep, and I will tell others to do the same." Sounds like a boycott to me.

central - you make my point once again - you want people to go to another shop because of Will and/or Mars Hill's beliefs and yet you don't seem to understand that you are being totally "intolerant" of their beliefs. If it is perfectly fine for you to call them, an "extreme right wing evangelical religious cult" of "women hating homophobes" why can't they simply say they believe homosexuality goes against their beliefs and/or the Bible - and furthermore, why is that labeled "hate" and not just an opinion? Why is your view more right then theirs? This is America, where diversity of opinions should be normal, free and encouraged - those on BOTH sides of an argument. I'm so tired of having one side labeled as "hate" just because they disagree. And food for thought once again, I've never heard of anyone at Mars Hill asking those in their congregation not to frequent businesses run by people of opposing beliefs...

Tolerance or intolerance has nothing to do with it. I believe that preaching that "homosexuals are a cancer that needs to be eradicated" is wrong. And I think taking this belief and spreading it through secretive evangelical businesses is even more wrong. The dude has every right to do what he wants. And me and my community have every right to discuss it, and to not follow or support his evangelism. That's not intolerant of me at all. It means I care about my community, and want protect and support it's gay members. Turning that support into "intolerance" is something only an intolerant religious person can do.

I think way back to when I was in high school and these school bullies were pushing around the gay kid on the playground. What did I do? I went right up to them and said "leave the kid alone" and got sucker punched for doing it. Should I have minded my own business, was I being intolerant of their right to be bullying around the poor kid? I don't believe so. If I see people being unfairly treated I want to get involved, and I will get involved. I grew up in the bible belt and I'm so thankful that I escaped the hatred... at least I thought I had.

Central - would you consider a homosexual opening a coffee shop to be a "secret homosexual business?" You are right that you have the right to discuss this and even avoid the business, but again, I think there is a double standard that if Mars Hill called for a boycott of homosexual businesses (which they have NOT) - the gay community would be up in arms calling discrimination and intolerance whereas when it's the other way around, you are "protecting" your community. All I'm trying to do here is encourage differences of opinion to be just that - and not "hate" "intolerance" etc. as that really is a two way street.

d - You did exactly the right thing in that instance - someone was being harmed and you stepped in, betcha Will would have done the same thing. But that has nothing to do with someone opening a coffee shop and trying to make a living. Again, be careful with the confusion of "hatred" and differences of opinion. YES there are those that hate homosexuals, women, men, Arabs, Jews, Europeans, you name it, but there are reasonable people that simply disagree with an issue or opinion and that does not make them haters.

Here's another Mars Hill member that was told by god to live amongst us "sinners" and "outcasts" in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, How thoughtful, huh? I wish these people could just live amongst people in our neighborhood and not consider it a "mission".

http://downtownseattle.marshillchurch.org/2009/06/02/mission